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Old 10-07-2011, 03:57 PM   #7 (permalink)
Benzo
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you are protesting the hypocrisy right now.

there are a number of logical issues with your argument. i will try to get at those first. some of them may bleed into things that are not simply logical criticisms because of how they are linked:

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this is not a homogeneous group of people. while there may indeed be designer clothes-wearing, iphone-having hipsters amongst the group, they are not the only ones, and the overall set of motives is too disparate to be clumped together under the criticism you have described. this is either an ad hominem or a fallacy of composition. or both. it is also an appeal to ridicule.
So you would agree that there are a shit load of people that probably dont have any fucking clue what they are protesting? The criticism is fair of those that fit that description. It would be inaccurate to call it a fallacy as it is true of many of the individuals.


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2. all of those things about access to information and sports, movies and video games, etc do not mean that the system is working properly, that people should not take issue with it and express that as protest, or that anyone has any more access to power and control over their lives than they used to. it is a non-sequitur.
Ok I agree I guess. Will there ever be a perfect system though? I have power and control over my life, I have earned the ability to have it

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3. you say you would rather the rich and powerful have access to the rules to obtain more riches and powers than idi amin. idi amin, or any other dictator, is not the only alternative. that's a red herring and also a false dilemma. i would say that i would rather than the power lie in altogether different sorts of hands. this would be another huge conversation. it suffices to say that you only presented two of many of possibilities and set them as the only choices. this is simply not the case.
Someone will always be in a position of power, it is just the nature of things. You said you would rather have the power sit in different sorts of hands. It is still power, the only logical argument you can have is that no-one can have the power which is impossible. IBID

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now for some things that are less about the logic of your argument and more about the ideas in general:

-you mention about 'us' being the luckiest on the planet (i am paraphrasing as a point of reference, i know this isn't exactly your point). this protest is not simply directed at north america, nor is it simply representative of north american voices. i would guess that most of the ire against wall street is not about how americans are poor, it is about global poverty, about environment, about access and equity - it is a global issue manifesting itself against an american institution that holds power and influence on a global scale.
I can agree, but as stated before most global poverty is not rooted at all in corporate greed but that of the individual. You have never really addressed it but there are greater evils in the world. It is a global issue sure but not THE global issue.

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or many people in the world, and for many people in north america, things really are so bad. we're talking about poverty, about institutionalized poverty, about marginalization, about access to oppportunity. we may have a dream that anyone can make it big, but that is simply not true. many of the protesters would argue that this is a critical problem for the well-being of nations and of individuals, and many more would argue that this is a major destabalizer of peace. if someone has a strong belief in that and a good argument to back it up, they probably should be protesting. the fetishization inherent in finance capital is both a contributing cause and a symbol of power disparity.
Again, we just disagree, Capitalism has provided more opportunity than any other system ever.

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-the fact that you dislike a system does not mean that you should not enjoy the fruits of it. in fact, it is nearly impossible not to be a part of the system in some way. this does not mean that you can't critique it and can't hope that it changes. but it would be senseless to not make any money, not invest anything, not buy food from stores or clothes in the winter just so that you can be pure when you protest. the 'system' is so vast and deep rooted that you have no choice but to participate on some level. i would be astonished if you truly felt that by buying food and clothes and a place to live you give up your right to protest without being labeled a hypocrite. (as a logical flaw this could be described as poisoning the well, although that could be debated).
There is a difference between need and want, and it what separates these hypocrites from the greats like Ghandi. Food, Clothes and roofs I have no problem with and never mentioned it. Some of them are participating in the same excess the are protesting.

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the position you are supporting is entrenched on a daily basis. you are welcome to protest the hypocrisy, but i don't know that it is needed. it is especially unwarranted when directed at a heterogeneous group as if they are all the same and all have the same flaws.
and I dont know that their protest is needed.
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